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Oh and one more thing, you were calling for Derek Andersons head before the season even started last year  You are not really the best poster to advocate patience and development. No insult intended, just making the point. I supported Da then cause he was the QB, I support BQ now for the same reason. Same with CRennel ect ect but I never supported Carthon, never supported Tucker. Players can only play as well as coaches call plays. They have talent peaks and need team work ect. Coaches should be able to get the most out their players, always, Daboll needs to be fired and replaced with a chimp. 1. We run the shotgun the entire game 2 weeks in a row. The formation was apparently not working yet we stuck by it. Our RT is having a lot of trouble bending and shuffling so he is not going to be able to pass block on a seven step drop which is essentially where the QB is in shotgun formations. The Broncos Mike Nolan figured this out and it led to 4 sacks and countless QB pressures. Know what could have prevented that? Mixing up the drops and formations. Use a 3 step drop and a quick pass to get positive yardage when they blitz. You can also use some screens. Once you establish the 3 step and throw you can run the ball because you negate the blitz. When you start running they will start run blitzing so you can use some PA and roll your QB out of the pocket, yet another thing that makes the RT's job a lot easier. None of this was done. None of it. We threw one screen (that I saw.) 2. When you are a HC, and you are drafting, building for the future ect you have to build around what you believe works. When you are in the regular season and playing a game you have to use whatever it takes to win the game. Especially as a Co-ordinator. Daboll seems unfazed in making the offense do what he wants to do, whether it works or not. This is the main thing that irritates me and makes me believe he should be replaced (at the end of the season). You cannot be inflexible. 3. He reminds me of an angry little man 4. He is an angry little man who sounds like MAngini's little buddy who follows him around and repeats everything he says. 5. He is making me go bald, and quickly. These are all legitimate reasons to fire a coach and I think we have arrived. Replace him with a chimp or get CHUD on the phone. |
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I agree CJD. Carthon was AWFUL. Daboll reminds me a lot of him.
I just got done watching the players interviews in Browns Sights and Sounds on the homepage. I would love it, if just once, the players would talk about how mad they are that they lost. I wish one of them would say they're gonna pound someone the next week. I want one of them to be angry. They look like a bunch of beat dogs...no pun intended. |
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They know, like I know, that their OC is going to make them all look very very bad yet there is nothing they can do or say. |
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No offense but why should we wait for the Peanut to go through the puberty of coaching? We pay full price for tickets, hats, beers, etc. and it's certainly not unprecedented for an OC to come to an NFL team and have success right off the bat and at least make the offense look better than our first expension year. If the owner/management expects us to sit through his maturing process, they should also lower the prices and let them mature at the same rate he does. |
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The system has to at least be coherent which the Peanut's is not. He's had mini-camps, traning camp and preseason and he clearly has no idea how to call a game. Why should he get more time than every other OC in the NFL? Having a QB competition makes little to no difference, 1 guy takes snaps with the 1st team and one with 2nd, just like when a starter is announced. They run the same plays either way. Our defense at least showed it has a scheme and can hang for 3qtrs but eventually they're going to tire down after the O goes 3 & out over and over again. |
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I'm all for it, he at least will get us some points and inevitably undermine Mangelina and then both of them coud be fired by season's end. |
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How was Mangini not able to bring Schottenheimer over from the Jets with him? He was OCing there for Mangini right? I'm pretty sure he would get a ton of support from Cleveland, not to mention he seems to be dialing up the right calls for the Jets and their young QB this year.
"A real genius is a guy like Norman Einstein" -Joe Theisman |
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I actually agree with pretty much everything else you're saying but the quote. He's 240 and dances around in the backfield. He's better than anyone we've had since we've been back, but he's not an elite back, and our line is not mature enough, nor talented enough to support a pretty good rb. That's all Jamal is now. Do you notice how he dances around every single hand off, before he goes for a hole? Our line doesn't provide the time to find a perfect lane, he's gotta power through. He plays like a 240 lb scat back. He needs to commit to a lane as soon as he gets the ball, he seems timid - which is a head-scratcher given his size. Likewise he's unable to break home run carries anymore. At least from what I've seen. And if he does break one for more than 30, it never ends in 7 pts. Again, we aren't good enough to consistently put the ball in the end zone after big run. He can't complete the runs he breaks, and doesn't have the confidence(it's the only reason I can think that he doesn't just plow through before his twinkle toes backfield moves)to charge forward. As for the holes, I was referring to our pass protection, which give Brady about 2 seconds tops, to throw the ball. Shotgun, wouldn't suggest that either, but you don't have to be in the gun to go deep - as you eluded. Bottom line, though Daboll hasn't thrilled me with his play calling, it is the performance on the field that is the true nature of the failure right now. Which is why I would adopt an all or nothing philosophy in the red zone, cuz we also aren't good enough on defense to play a field goal match with our opponents. "Don't be thick in front of me" |
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Hard to say I guess, one guys opinion vs. another (on Jamal) and really neither of us probably know as much as they do. I believe he is still a good back and that tip toe move is a signature of Lewis and always has been. The O-line isn;t doing a good enough job and execution is a problem but I truly believe that the ROOT of the problem is play calling. You will never have enough in the NFL. You'll never have ALL the right pieces but coaching gets you over the top. The best teams in the NFL have two things in common. 1) The Best QB's and 2) The Best Coaches. Mangini is a good football coach and I like a lot of the moves he has made since coming here. My problem is with Daboll. I give the guy an absolute F so far for every reason previously listed and I believe he is going to destroy Brady Quinn as a QB. |
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It had something to do with the contracts I believe. Schottenheimer was sticking around in NY no matter what. Even then I wouldn't want him for personal reasons. I like the guy and loved his dad but I don't like his offensive scheme. That is strictly opinion and means nothing beyond the statement. It works but I just don't like it. I thought the reason Daboll came here was to run the ball. Mangini didn't want to run the shotgun again (so he said) and rely so much on the pass but wanted to run the ball. Where is the run? |
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I don't care, at least he would run an intelligent offense. At this point Brady Quinn has no chance of ever becoming a decent QB because this play calling will destroy him. Once he is considered a "bust" he will go to some other team and be a career back-up and maybe, he might get a shot when some guy goes down and be able to resurrect his career but I am telling you all now, this OC is going to ruin him in Cleveland. Right now he still gets a free pass. We need to take advantage of that so badly and if the coaches don't realize that or realize what is going to happen to him then they know nothing about this decade in Cleveland. We ruin QB's because we are so tired of this poor excuse for a football team that gets pushed in our freaking face year in and year out. If somebody comes in and wins, we will love him, no wait, he will be a god in Cleveland. We'll build statues of the guy just get us out of this mess. I am going bald and it's got to do with 2 things. My wife and kid, and my football team. I am suppose to have Sunday off. I go to the bar and get my time alone with the guys and get a little buzzed. If we win I come home happy and ready to do it all over again the next week. If we loose I am the guy screaming at the T.V. and come home depressed and mad. The Browns Suck Hangover usually lasts into Tuesday before it finally goes away. |
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I was really worried about our new OC. No experience.
However, he has called pretty good games. Besides, play calling is overrated. Execution is underrated. Methinks the Brady Bunch is attacking the first available target in order to shift the blame from Bwady to someone else. That's gutty, fellas.  You Junior............I am a season ticket holder and I've had them before your daddy bought the team. If you start firing coaches again.............to appease a misguided fan base..........I am turning them it!!!! Got that? |
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Pathetic. You should be ashamed of yourselves. I'm beginning to really dislike all that is Brown's nation. |
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Seriously. A coach being run out of town gets a new chance. He has a fairly sharp football mind and gets a new chance with a team that has more talent than it's 4-12 record would indicate.
This is a ridiculous comment. This team does not have more talent than a 4-12 record would indicate. I know it is tough when someone calls your child ugly (the Browns being our Child), but what are you freaking watching. With what I have seen over the past 11 years I would say we will be lucky to win 4 games this year. There is no freaking talent on this team. Get serious, how many players on our team could start for the Steelers? 2 or 3 maybe. Get over it the team stinks. Sig deleted due to length and smack |
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Hey you have your opinion and I have mine, but understand that I am the biggest advocate of firing this guy and I was never a member of the "brady bunch." I rooted for and defended tooth and nail Derik Anderson until he was no longer the starting QB. I did the same for Romeo Crennel and CHUD. I now root for Jamal and others but I am saying this guy should be fired because point blank, he should. Sure, execution is way underrated and believe me, if this offense was a double of the Colts Daboll would look like a genius but it is not. Yet he refuses to scrap his base formula and try other ways of attack. Maybe everything he believes in offensively works with the right personnel. But we don;t have that and in that situation you must be flexible. You must do whatever it takes to win, regardless. As a fan I see it, why doesn't he. The only answer I can think of is one, he is incapable or two, he is ego maniacal. I don't want him fired cause his system isn't working, I want him fired cause he won't adapt and try something that might. He has 5 more games in my book and if he doesn't become more versatile then he must be fired for the sake of the team. BTW, Brady Quinn is now the starting QB of the Cleveland Browns and although I will always give him an honest assessment, I will also defend him as I have every other player on this team. |
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Care to explain why I should be ashamed of myself, cause as far as I see it I AM ashamed of this team for the utter failure to produce anything since 99. I LOVE THIS FOOTBALL TEAM. But like having a failure for a son you may love them and be ashamed at the same time. Well The Cleveland Browns are 40 and still can't hold a job, they drink and cheat on their wife, and they have 2 kids that I support. That's how I see it and no, that is not from my personal life. |
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I will try to answer both posts.
First.........play calling has been fine. You wouldn't believe this, but all of us coaches....well....we design offensive plays to succeed. We don't have a "Succeed List" and a "Fail List." Each play, properly executed, can succeed. The real key of coaching is to get your players to execute the called plays. Thus far, the Browns are not executing. You wanna blame the coaches for the lack of execution......go ahead. But let me tell you something........it isn't the play calling. Me.......I think the execution lies on the players in this particular case. You may say I wanna bash BQ. I may say you wanna protect BQ. Regardless....we aren't getting it done and it isn't because of the play calling. All I ask dude...........is play fair. Why should you be ashamed of yourself? Dude, you are calling him retarded. You are placing ALl of the blame on one guy. Do you really need to ask me that question? |
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I honestly don't believe that. I think we certainly lack talent in some areas but we have more than enough to win with. I see the problem as being solely the OC. Mangini is a defensive coach so I don;t expect him to be a great offensive play caller. Ryan has done a great job squeezing as much as he can out of a unit that IS truly talent deprived. Offensively we have talent. What we do not have is an OC who has any idea of how to utilize it. That's what makes me so mad. We can be a 7-9 team this year but we might just go 0-16 and hang yet another QB all because of a former defensive assistant who has 1 year of experience as Brett Favre's QB coach. Care to explain his resume'? How did he get this job anyways? If Mangini brought him over as a "Buddy" then I will place blame much higher but for now I am going with the information I have and that is what has been stated. He may get better and if he does, I'll stop calling for his head. What I want to see is versatility. Adaptability. And utilization of the talent we have and believe me, there is plenty. Josh Cribbs alone could be one of the best Screen WR's in the entire league if we can just mix up the play calling. Instead people are calling the end to an experiment which is getting ZERO chance to succeed along with everybody else on the offense and subsequently the team. BTW I think Cribbs is a natural slot receiver and always has been. He has no business being the number 2 and shouldn't even be the slot till he gets his routes down. Furthermore, can you imagine a better wildcat QB anywhere? Did you guys not see what Miami has done with Ronnie Brown. Josh Cribbs can actually throw the ball and is a real threat to run as well. An innovative coach not only could but most certainly WOULD take advantage of that. |
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Daboll is a BIG part of the problem. The guy sticking up for him lacks any real understanding of football strategy. "us coaches" lol
Fire "Shotgun or Bust" Daboll now! |
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So, we went through this before, this means you think it was: Brilliant to run twice with Cribbs inside the 3. Brilliant to run last week from the 6 OUT OF A PASSING FORMATION (ie. worst blockers on the field at the goal line). Brilliant to run a shovel pass on 3rd and 9 week 1. Brilliant to be in the shotgun for all but 2 plays in the first Q of Q1. A combined total of 2 screens in 2 games. 2 other guys you talked about the lame word "execution" - Maurice Carthon and Chud. Neither are currently NFL OC's because both were so bad. Good plays with bad execution - when Massoquoi was lined up on the LBer, Quinn hit the LBer in the back. that was good play terribleexecution. When Edwards was one on one twice in game 1. First play was PI on Minni. The other one Quinn changed the play - so he called it - but threw the pick. 2 good calls in 2 games does not make for "pretty good offensive playcalling" No, I'm not using it as an excuse for Quinn's miserable play. that's all on Quinn. The last several years have been terrible playcalling and I never used it as an excuse forAnderson. ------------------- Browns without Braylon Edwards, 1-0. Jets with Braylon Edwards, 0-1. coincidence? |
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I've been watching other teams play offense and it only makes our vanilla and predictable play calling seem even worse.
THE NUMBER ONE PROBLEM WITH THIS TEAM IS BAD PLAY CALLING. 2. Bad Linebackers 3. Bad QB play |
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No I wasn't. I was calling for a competition so Quinn would have a chance to compete for the job. I didn't call for DA's head before the season started. As a matter of fact once the season started I said we should play it out until the wheels have obviously come off. There should be no "short leash". Once it was obvious DA had regressed, THEN I said we should see Quinn. If you're going to call me on something, get the facts right first eh? My problem last season was handing DA the job without Quinn having a chance at all.
I called for the three step drop in a thread I started last week called "moving forward". I'd love to see a more traditional Walsh style WCO. But that's not what we run. After the draft, NFL Network ran a number of Jets games from last year. Our O is basically last years Jets O. I predicted a lot of Shotgun this year. This is the system man. Get used to it. I still don't get how you can call for heads after TWO GAMES! That's crazy man. Oh and for all the "lets put in DA and throw downfield" pimps...... Our system doesn't feature down the field passing much. Count on lots of shotgun and lots of short WCO patterns. That's no matter WHO the QB is.
When you're installing a brand new system you have to stay the course longer than TWO games before waving your arms around screaming "the sky is falling". It takes three years to fully install the WCO. And we tried doing it in the midst of a QB competition. You thought that would add up to immediate success? Interesting.
I'd be angry too if things started off this poorly. Doesn't mean I'd completely abandon what I was trying to do. It takes TIME installing an offense.
Take a chill pill, crack open a brew or three and relax man. Anyone with sense knew this was going to take a while. I thought you had sense, though I'm starting to wonder. Again, you've been the voice of reason for the most part. I can't believe you're breaking out the guillotine already.
These are legitimate reasons to fire a guy after a season or two. Not after TWO games man.
This is the collective fault of everyone so if head must roll then Dabolls should have some company. Like Rob Ryan. This defense sucks. Guess the DC has to go too...... It's not inconceivable Daboll could be replaced at the end of the season. It may depend on Notre Dames record this year. Charlie Weis would seem a perfect fit..... But it's WAY to early to cut heads yet man. -------------------------------------- Abandon hope, all ye who enter here. |
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Oh and if we did fire Daboll and bring in Weis or someone else I suppose they could immediately install their offense and be off to the races? Because that's what you expected from Daboll. An immediate install and effectiveness. Glad we're being fair.
If we're calling for heads then Rob Ryans got to go. He has all this talent on Defense and has done nothing with it. Worst tackling team in the league once again. Little pressure on the QB once again. Inconsistent effort once again. Man, he's had TWO whole games to get these guys playing together. What's he waiting on? *snicker* -------------------------------------- Abandon hope, all ye who enter here. |
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HA !!! That is hill-arious!! First good laugh I've had in a while on these threads ... |
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holy moly mangini, you and daboll are going to get braidy killed. we lost all of our QB's last year, are you trying to improve on that record. and the defense. ryan came in here saying that we were going to rush the passer. he fogot to tell us that was only in the first half. this is going to be another long season unless we get untracked.
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The first thing, and pay attention as it will be quick, I will defend Daboll by saying the fight side of the o-line is a complete disaster.
On the flip side, the fact remains that Daboll has had three halfs and a full week to prepare for a five man rush. Daboll made no changes at the half against the Vikings except to go to the hurry-up offense but ran the same plays. He did suceed running up the middle until the interception. It is obvious Denver scouted that game as they used the same defense. I am not sure what the problem is but I prefer a coordinator who thinks on his feet and can change plays mid-stream. These guys are professionals and I am sure they can run a play they may not have practiced all week if ever. To beat the fiove man rush you exploit the middle of the field. Quick slants, screens, traps, and to keep the defense honest, throw deep down the sideline into single coverage. The key is simple, the o-line must block like their lives depended on it and allow BQ to do quick three step drops withhout a defender in his face with their hands up. Finally, roll-outs and reverses while risky can get you many yards or simply waste a down if you have a second and short scenario. Daboll, if you are reading this I am sure you know this. Are you trying to be unpredictable by being predictable? A word of advice, that usually gets a guy in your position fired. Better to lose trying every bullet in your arsenal than to die without pulling the trigger. |
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This team is in trouble. I dont think they could compete in the canadien league. The QB spot is the least of the problems. No matter who is back there they will get killed bc of our line, they have no one to throw to, and no runningback to open up the pass.
I dont care if Joe Montana was back there. This team is bad and needs at least 6 great drafts just to be NFL caliber. Im not even going to mnetion the D...thats another rebuilding process. |
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Spirit, I think that is your best post ever. |
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Yes Spiritbro for the most part you are right, I do not intend to have Mr. Daboll looking for a job by week 3 but I hope to make fans understand what it is we are doing. As for this system, yes, it takes time, 3 years seems logical. However, if you do not have the talent to run a system like this why not work in some other things which you can run. Then you can pull out your west coast shotgun. See that's my issue. I do not expect him to switch his entire philosophy, I expect him to do whatever it takes to make his philosophy work and that means using some other things as well. That's what makes me think this guy is incompetent. Once he established some varied drops and varied playcalling he could use some west coast shotgun. You are a huge BQ advocate and always have been. He is my guy now. I will defend him tooth and nail unless he proves he cannot handle it. There is something special about this kid. Daboll is going to get him hanged. You should understand that as well as anybody. Look at that other article somebody just posted. Not a word about Daboll but plenty about BQ holding the ball too long ect ect ect. Normal fans buy into that crap and not every sports writer watches the games he comments on. I do not really advocate firing him now, I want people to understand that he needs to be fired now so that they will understand our offensive woese and just how much falls on the QB and the line ect. I am usually a voice of reason, so if I am literally SCREAMING this in every thread what do you think it means? It means it's very very serious. |
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One last thing Spirit. Ryan has done a great job with his talent. I would say he has less than the offense overall and still has managed to do some good things. Our defense has kept us in games for the most part and when they start to fail look when and where and then ask yourself why. (3rd and 4th Q) How can these guys keep playing at a high level when the O goes 3 an out every time. This is not the Ravens D, this is not Chicago. Our defense does not have the talent to win any games but it the offense produced as well we might just be 2-0.
Just a thought. Ryan has made adjustments on the fly. He sends corners, safeties, LB's whatever it takes to attack. He has stayed on top of his game 110% and if he gambles it's because he has too. We do lack talent on this team but I think it is obvious that a good coach can make less talent look a whole lot better. Ryan is doing an incredible job in my opinion. Daboll is doing the exact opposite. Oh yeah and one last thing. I live near New Orleans. How come Sean Payton can come to New Orleans, send away some of his best talent a year after the team goes 2-14. And install one of the best offenses in the NFL. They went to the championship that year did they not. It didn;t take them 3 years and they had a whole heck of a lot less talent than we do now. No. They were that good because the guy calling the plays was that good. Drew Brees is a great QB. But without Payton he wouldn't be nearly as good as he is now. Payton puts him in position to make plays and he goes and makes them. We do not even put BQ in position to make plays so how can we expect him to execute. I am telling you. He will be swinging from a tree by the end of the season unless the fans understand the real problem. |
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GO LOOK AT "BAD START IS THE FAULT OF THE WHOLE TEAM" THREAD SPIRIT. DOESN'T LOOK LIKE THE WHOLE TEAM IS GETTING THE BLAME. LOOKS LIKE ANOTHER QB GETS HUNG BY THE BROWNS FANS AND THIS TIME IT IS NOT HIS FAULT.
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DABOLL=CHUD=CARTHON. Is it my turn, I'll stretch the field some. Throw some screens, keep the defense off my QB. I'll run the ball, some play action. I've called a few Pop-Warner games. Check my resume I can be there , later today. I'm doing pretty good from my chair at home, I can see where I could help. Give me a call. I CAN DO IT. Smash-mouth football. Nasty get after it defense. High powered attacking offense. This is Cleveland Brown Football. AKA MADDOG |
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Our Defense has played well enough for us to have won either game. By the offense not scoring it's killing the de. Come on be attacking, stpo letting the defense dictate every aspect of the offense. Get gusty and call games as if you want to win, not like your happy to have the greatest view of the crap thats called a game plan. High school coordinators call better games than the Browns for about 10 yrs now.This is really, really old this stinks soooooooo bad. It's a travesty to the Browns Fans, embarassing.
Smash-mouth football. Nasty get after it defense. High powered attacking offense. This is Cleveland Brown Football. AKA MADDOG |
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Let's say there's 3 seconds left in the game. We're down by 2 and we have the ball on the opponents 20 yard line. The coaches call for a field goal and out trots the FG unit. The snap is good, the hold is good, the blocking is good, the kicker shanks one. Damn, we lose the game. BUT the play call was correct, it was lack of execution, particularly on the kicker.
Now let's say there's 3 seconds left in the game, and we're down by 2, but this time we have the ball on our own 20 yard line. The coaches call for a field goal and out trots our FG unit. The snap is good, the hold is good, the blocking is good, the kicker booms one that would be good for a 67 yard FG. Unfortunately, it lands 30 yards short of the 97 yard FG we needed. Damn, we lose the game. That is notpoor execution. That is a bad play call. It had no chance for success. I am willing to give a new regime plenty of time to establish themselves without too much criticism, but back to back weeks there's been some real head scratching in the offensive play calling. Week 1 the Mildcat from the goal line. Not once, but twice. Ok, Mangini said he called for that so it's not on Daboll. Who knows, maybe Mangini really did call for it or maybe he said he did to take heat off of Daboll. But tell me, just how many times should it take for a professional coach, a guy who actually makes his living as a coach, to realize that his right tackle is getting torched and getting his QB killed? Are people really trying to say that hit after hit was good play calling and just bad execution? The first time, fine, poor execution, but a professional coach has to start realizing that his player(s)can't execute what he's asking them to do given what the opposition is doing. He needs to figure that out in a hurry and make adjustments and call plays that his players can execute. That's his damn job. ********************************************** Nothing shocks me anymore. Well, except for the cop with a Taser that one time. |
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Couldn't say it better myself |
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Nicely Said. I couldn't agree more. If you can't turn it around after two off with their heads.  _______________________________________ Have a cold home brew and relax. It's no fun watching new grass grow, but after two summers it is all green and no weeds! |
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It's poor talent and execution, not play calling.
PERIOD. End of discussion (for me anyway).  Two Years, Two Pro Bowls. |
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I agree, our talent level is poor, and when that poor talent cannot execute, then you get the team we see on Sundays. Its pretty simple IMO, poor drafting for the past 10 years= a bad football team. Really assess this offense, Daboll is working with a rookie center, half of an O-line, No RB's, one playmaker (Braylon), not too mention trying to teach Cribbs how to be an NFL WR, blocking TE's, ect...ect...ect... Oh I almost forgot, two 2nd round pick WR's who apparently are going to need 3 years to develope, no Percy Harvin in that bunch, what do you expect, really??? |
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Again - since no one responds: 2 calls in the wildcat from the 3. Running from a passing formation from the 6 (worst blockers on the filed) Rookie center - going in shotgun for the entire Q1 in Minnesota. Not running Lewis against Minnesota when he was getting 5 yards a pop. Not running 1 single playaction pass against Minnesota. Running a total of 2 screens in 2 games. Not concentrating on running left and letting Thomas and Steinbach impose their will on the opposition - instead trying to spread the runs around. The playcalling has been downright atrocious. Daboll, so far, has made Carthon look like a genius. ------------------- Browns without Braylon Edwards, 1-0. Jets with Braylon Edwards, 0-1. coincidence? |
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Mangini says he likes the play calling. So if you want someone's head.......
-------------------------------------- Abandon hope, all ye who enter here. |
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