quote:

Originally posted by Spiritbro77:
Gee Chip, glad you're enjoying the season so far. Going well isn't it? Too bad your boy got benched today, I know you're probably a worried mother concerned for her sons welfare and as a result taking it out on others. Take a chill pill. Your boy will likely be starting against Baltimore. Though for the life of me I can't understand why he was benched with 3 minutes left. Seemed like a Manweenie thing to do. Ah well. At least our running game is up to snuff. You were right by the way, we WERE all set at the position. No need to look further or waste any draft picks there. We are awesome on the ground. Zero rushing touchdowns for a RB in over 14 games. Can it get any better? So glad I was wrong about that....
I can obviously see the reason for your love of all things Mangini. 1-7 is an awe inspiring start and his devotion to YOUR son is heartwarming. However, I believe the Owner is having some doubts about the mysterious direction the team is heading in. He could of course ask Jamal Lewis, but seemingly he has no clue what the plan is or if there even IS one. *snicker*
First pick of the draft here we come. I'll bet Banks will pimp a receiver. *snicker*

Ahhhh, a typical Spirit post that twists things and is filled with lies. How do you figure that DA is my "boy"? After all, Vers told me I was blatantly biased towards Quinn when I disagreed with him about BQ's skill set. Then I am told by you BQ pimps that I am a DA pimp because I think Quinn played poorly.

You are barely above troll level, Spirit. You can *snicker* all you want as you try to insult my football intelligence and put words in my mouth. I will *snicker* and add the same sort of tactic by saying you probably would have been screaming for Jimmy Johnson to get fired from Dallas if you had been a fan because he went 1-15 his first year as their coach. How "awe inspiring" was that...and how did that turn out? You and others like you crack me up. You could care less what the long term answer is. You would rather be right than the Browns be successful. You would rather insult people and put words in their mouth rather than actually see how things unfold for the team. You and some of these others are a joke.

No one has proclaimed Mangini a great coach. A few RATIONALE and INTELLIGENT fans have said they want to give time to a new regime to actually build a team and let it unfold. They have corrected a bunch of crap being spewed by impatient blowhards. Thus, they are labeled and ridiculed. You and your kind of poster would be hilarious if you weren't so sad.

quote:

Originally posted by easternmh2:

quote:

Originally posted by chipbanksfan:

quote:

Originally posted by easternmh2:

quote:

Originally posted by Brady10z:
lol

Chip linked an article of jets reaction the day they found out Mangini was fired when they were unaware of what was going on and they had to respond with a political "safe" comment.

How about you look up my quotes after Mangini was fired for a few weeks already and the Jets unleashed their true feelings..

what a tool. lol.

Yeah probably why he decided to shut it down on this topic - it's pretty well known that everyone (media, players, mgmt) in NY hated Mangina

Really? Add these comments to the above:

``Certain things you don't see coming and it catches you off guard,'' said cornerback Ty Law. ``It's unfortunate. Eric is a great coach. He deserves better, especially from us as players. ... No, he didn't lose the team. The guys were behind him 100 percent. To say he lost the locker room, no.''

``I'm surprised. I didn't see it coming,'' echoed tight end Chris Baker. ``The way this business is, you have to expect the unexpected, though.''

``Eric and I are good friends,'' said cornerback Darrelle Revis. ``I''m sure he's going to be somewhere else next year.''

Safety Kerry Rhodes pointed to the Jets' effort in their 24-17 loss to the Dolphins on Sunday as proof that they didn't quit on Mangini.

``We came out and we still fought,'' said Rhodes.

``Everyone played a role (in Mangini getting fired),'' said wide receiver Jerricho Cotchery. ``We should've done better as players. I could've done a better job of making plays. Eric is a good guy. It's tough to see him go.''


Funny how Mrs. Brady will go to such lengths to defend her son and slam Mangini, isn't it? Claiming that the quotes were the political thing to do even though the coach was fired and could do nothing to them. It's a crock from a very upset mom of a benched player. She may feel a little better if her son still hits his incentives if named starter again, though.

Add all those comments to all of those players the signed with Mangini here with the Browns and Kris Jenkins' comments that were obviously in favor of Mangini and the picture being painted by Mrs. Brady is obviously biased by her son's being benched and her anger about it.

None of those are glowing endorsements.......

You honestly think Mangini's the right guy???

I didn't take the time to find Kris Jenkins' and other quotes because they're so well known. Those quotes show that Mrs. Quinn was making things up about the players "hating" Mangini in New York. Brady10z isn't a Browns fan....just a Quinn fan as the posts have proven throughout the last couple of years.

I don't know if Mangini is the right guy or not. I do know that some short sighted people don't understand that sometimes you have to tear down to build. I understand the moves with the cancers Winslow and BE. I understand that those deals aren't complete as there are still picks to be made from those trades. I understand why a FO would be concerned with a QB that looked so bad as BQ did hitting escalators to increase his salary to $11 million a season and then be stuck for $20 million in cap space on two bust QBs....crippling the organization in the future. I understand that a frustrating season can change into a succussful run long term....as Dallas was 1-15 Johnson's first year.

I don't know if Mangini is the answer, but there is no way we know that in one season.....and BQ pimps save the crap about Quinn getting 2 1/2 games as a reply.

quote:

Originally posted by chipbanksfan:

quote:

Originally posted by easternmh2:

quote:

Originally posted by chipbanksfan:

quote:

Originally posted by easternmh2:

quote:

Originally posted by Brady10z:
lol

Chip linked an article of jets reaction the day they found out Mangini was fired when they were unaware of what was going on and they had to respond with a political "safe" comment.

How about you look up my quotes after Mangini was fired for a few weeks already and the Jets unleashed their true feelings..

what a tool. lol.

Yeah probably why he decided to shut it down on this topic - it's pretty well known that everyone (media, players, mgmt) in NY hated Mangina

Really? Add these comments to the above:

``Certain things you don't see coming and it catches you off guard,'' said cornerback Ty Law. ``It's unfortunate. Eric is a great coach. He deserves better, especially from us as players. ... No, he didn't lose the team. The guys were behind him 100 percent. To say he lost the locker room, no.''

``I'm surprised. I didn't see it coming,'' echoed tight end Chris Baker. ``The way this business is, you have to expect the unexpected, though.''

``Eric and I are good friends,'' said cornerback Darrelle Revis. ``I''m sure he's going to be somewhere else next year.''

Safety Kerry Rhodes pointed to the Jets' effort in their 24-17 loss to the Dolphins on Sunday as proof that they didn't quit on Mangini.

``We came out and we still fought,'' said Rhodes.

``Everyone played a role (in Mangini getting fired),'' said wide receiver Jerricho Cotchery. ``We should've done better as players. I could've done a better job of making plays. Eric is a good guy. It's tough to see him go.''


Funny how Mrs. Brady will go to such lengths to defend her son and slam Mangini, isn't it? Claiming that the quotes were the political thing to do even though the coach was fired and could do nothing to them. It's a crock from a very upset mom of a benched player. She may feel a little better if her son still hits his incentives if named starter again, though.

Add all those comments to all of those players the signed with Mangini here with the Browns and Kris Jenkins' comments that were obviously in favor of Mangini and the picture being painted by Mrs. Brady is obviously biased by her son's being benched and her anger about it.

None of those are glowing endorsements.......

You honestly think Mangini's the right guy???

I didn't take the time to find Kris Jenkins' and other quotes because they're so well known. Those quotes show that Mrs. Quinn was making things up about the players "hating" Mangini in New York. Brady10z isn't a Browns fan....just a Quinn fan as the posts have proven throughout the last couple of years.

I don't know if Mangini is the right guy or not. I do know that some short sighted people don't understand that sometimes you have to tear down to build. I understand the moves with the cancers Winslow and BE. I understand that those deals aren't complete as there are still picks to be made from those trades. I understand why a FO would be concerned with a QB that looked so bad as BQ did hitting escalators to increase his salary to $11 million a season and then be stuck for $20 million in cap space on two bust QBs....crippling the organization in the future. I understand that a frustrating season can change into a succussful run long term....as Dallas was 1-15 Johnson's first year.

I don't know if Mangini is the answer, but there is no way we know that in one season.....and BQ pimps save the crap about Quinn getting 2 1/2 games as a reply.

Look up Rod Marinelli's guide to building a football team and report back.......let me know how successful that was

quote:

Originally posted by easternmh2:

quote:

Originally posted by chipbanksfan:

quote:

Originally posted by easternmh2:

quote:

Originally posted by chipbanksfan:

quote:

Originally posted by easternmh2:

quote:

Originally posted by Brady10z:
lol

Chip linked an article of jets reaction the day they found out Mangini was fired when they were unaware of what was going on and they had to respond with a political "safe" comment.

How about you look up my quotes after Mangini was fired for a few weeks already and the Jets unleashed their true feelings..

what a tool. lol.

Yeah probably why he decided to shut it down on this topic - it's pretty well known that everyone (media, players, mgmt) in NY hated Mangina

Really? Add these comments to the above:

``Certain things you don't see coming and it catches you off guard,'' said cornerback Ty Law. ``It's unfortunate. Eric is a great coach. He deserves better, especially from us as players. ... No, he didn't lose the team. The guys were behind him 100 percent. To say he lost the locker room, no.''

``I'm surprised. I didn't see it coming,'' echoed tight end Chris Baker. ``The way this business is, you have to expect the unexpected, though.''

``Eric and I are good friends,'' said cornerback Darrelle Revis. ``I''m sure he's going to be somewhere else next year.''

Safety Kerry Rhodes pointed to the Jets' effort in their 24-17 loss to the Dolphins on Sunday as proof that they didn't quit on Mangini.

``We came out and we still fought,'' said Rhodes.

``Everyone played a role (in Mangini getting fired),'' said wide receiver Jerricho Cotchery. ``We should've done better as players. I could've done a better job of making plays. Eric is a good guy. It's tough to see him go.''


Funny how Mrs. Brady will go to such lengths to defend her son and slam Mangini, isn't it? Claiming that the quotes were the political thing to do even though the coach was fired and could do nothing to them. It's a crock from a very upset mom of a benched player. She may feel a little better if her son still hits his incentives if named starter again, though.

Add all those comments to all of those players the signed with Mangini here with the Browns and Kris Jenkins' comments that were obviously in favor of Mangini and the picture being painted by Mrs. Brady is obviously biased by her son's being benched and her anger about it.

None of those are glowing endorsements.......

You honestly think Mangini's the right guy???

I didn't take the time to find Kris Jenkins' and other quotes because they're so well known. Those quotes show that Mrs. Quinn was making things up about the players "hating" Mangini in New York. Brady10z isn't a Browns fan....just a Quinn fan as the posts have proven throughout the last couple of years.

I don't know if Mangini is the right guy or not. I do know that some short sighted people don't understand that sometimes you have to tear down to build. I understand the moves with the cancers Winslow and BE. I understand that those deals aren't complete as there are still picks to be made from those trades. I understand why a FO would be concerned with a QB that looked so bad as BQ did hitting escalators to increase his salary to $11 million a season and then be stuck for $20 million in cap space on two bust QBs....crippling the organization in the future. I understand that a frustrating season can change into a succussful run long term....as Dallas was 1-15 Johnson's first year.

I don't know if Mangini is the answer, but there is no way we know that in one season.....and BQ pimps save the crap about Quinn getting 2 1/2 games as a reply.

Look up Rod Marinelli's guide to building a football team and report back.......let me know how successful that was

WOW that might be the worst example ever. I wasn't even in this conversation but, there is no way on god's green earth it was Rod Marinelli's fault they went 0-16. That was all the genius of Matt Millen aka The Worst GM in the history of the NFL without a doubt.

Yeah, lookup how Matt Millen and Rod Miranelli worked together and report back to me.

Heck, just real quick, wikipedia Matt Millen and report back...lol

So that explains Matt's inability to draft NFL caliber players?


That explains him taking a WR in round one and a QB in round two every single year whilst avoiding drafting linemen like they had the plague?

Naaah, every coach brings in players they know and that know their system when they go somewhere new. what matters is what you do in the draft once you get there.

This is by far the worst Browns team in history. The talent level is drastically lower than it was last season. There is absolutely no imaginable excuse for doing worse than Crennel.

Mangini may yet still work as an on-the-field coach, but he (and Kokinis, who was rightfully fired) has no talent for personnel decisions.

Mangini has to be a practical joker or something. He's blabbing about the extra work and pratices, yet he says maybe he will name starter early next week.

LOL didnt he play this game in preseason. instead of letting someone use this extra time to get it right with WR and Dufus Daboll, he wants to play games with the QB.

How he can look himself in the mirror and say DA should start again, says it all.

Also all he seems to care about is if a player can play special teams, he acts more like a ST coach then a HC

quote:

LOL didnt he play this game in preseason. instead of letting someone use this extra time to get it right with WR and Dufus Daboll, he wants to play games with the QB

This is yet another reason I think Mangini needs to be fired.

The way Mangini has handled the QB situation - is in itself a good enough reason to fire him.

i think randy lerner needs to be blamed bringing in a bunch of proven losers, to run our team since we came back. im done watching this team live untill he can bring in a leader that has proven they can build a team and at least have a winning record. mangina will never, this organization makes me DISGUSTED, PISSED OFF, AND SICK. RANDY MAKES ME SICK!!!!!!!!!

I WILL NEVER BACK DA AFTER O7 SEASON, AFTER HIS FOUR INTERCEPTION AGAINST CINCY TO CLINCH US A PLAYOFF BERTH. I RATHER SEE QUINN STRUGGLE AT LEAST HE'S A TRUE BROWNS FAN. DA WILL END HIS CAREER WITH THREE TIMES MORE INTERCEPTIONS THAN TDS AND IM BEING NICE!!!

I have one question..........WTF is his philosophy?????????? Why would you need to bring in players from your old team to teach it, obviously it didn't work there and it isn't working here. He needs to leave, period. The defense wasn't the problem before he came it was the offense and that is mainly because they were using the bottom of the barrel quarterbacks. He should have came in and improved the offense and added depth to the defense, plain and simple. All of this other crap has basically ruined a team that could have had a good season. A good number of the people posting are the same ones who wanted Crennel and Savage gone, now look what you have. I could replacing Crennel but not Savage, at least he made the final decision not a power struck idiot.

quote:

A good number of the people posting are the same ones who wanted Crennel and Savage gone, now look what you have. I could replacing Crennel but not Savage, at least he made the final decision not a power struck idiot

Most people that wanted a regime change took Lerner at his word that a proper search for a credible GM would take place and then a coach would be brought in. This is not what happened. Lerner heard Mangini was available and hired him with very little thought into the process. Then Mangini proceeded to convince Lerner to hire his good buddy Kokinis when people who have more experience in these matters gave him different advice. Don't blame the fans for the foolish choices that the owner has made.

Mangini picked Barton, Bowens, and Elam. He knew these guys. The QB mess. Half the players on this roster are Mangini picks.

What is the product on display? Mack, Furry, Francies, and Coleman. Massa and Robo, probably. DV and the pig-sticker, maybe.

Four productive players, out of twenty-what?

You really want this guy to draft and sign next year? I guess it makes as much sense as starting the worst QB to hit the league in 20+ years.

quote:

Originally posted by se7enzz9:
Mangini picked Barton, Bowens, and Elam. He knew these guys. The QB mess. Half the players on this roster are Mangini picks.

What is the product on display? Mack, Furry, Francies, and Coleman. Massa and Robo, probably. DV and the pig-sticker, maybe.

Four productive players, out of twenty-what?

You really want this guy to draft and sign next year? I guess it makes as much sense as starting the worst QB to hit the league in 20+ years.

He ran off Sean Jones, Andre Davis, Kellen Winslow, Braylon Edwards, Kevin Scheffer. he traded the #5 pick for Jets third teamers and a center...Kokonis has said he only agreed with the center pick ( Mack) and the rest were manginis. Kokonis has said he only heard of the Edwards pick on the radio, Hand picked by Mangini was kokonis a Gm in name only. And we scapegoat Kokonis.
And Mangini stubbornly sticks with the worst starting QB in the NFL where every week brings a more wretched performance but Quinn sits as he had his 2.5 game tryout against the NFL elite.
But Lerner is sticking with Mangini. Our groundhog day in Football Hell continues. lerner will have an email interview about it.
I doubt if anyone credible would want to come here should lerner actually cough up money and quit crying over the millions he blew in other poorly thought hires.

What is Randy Lerner's email?

This team has talent!!! does anyone rem the 10 - 6 season we had but anderson ended up blowing our shot at the playoffs by sucking agaisnt cincinnati the last game but we have talent!!! The browns were picked to be up top the AFC North in 2008 under crennel and won like 4 games that season..so they have the talent!

quote:

Originally posted by jbarnes2:
This team has talent!!! does anyone rem the 10 - 6 season we had but anderson ended up blowing our shot at the playoffs by sucking agaisnt cincinnati the last game but we have talent!!! The browns were picked to be up top the AFC North in 2008 under crennel and won like 4 games that season..so they have the talent!

HAD talent, we blew a big part of our offense when the King of Queens yard saled Winslow and Edwards and got squat. Also Anderson has regressed to below Todd Philcox level of competence. And the Coaching..another rookie OC.
We also had Ryan Tucker on the 07 line, we now have mummies at RG and RT. We stink BAD.

In all of my 40+ years following and supporting this Browns franchise and the NFL as a whole, I have NEVER seen an implosion and complete lack of care or understanding for the "historic pride" this franchise it once represented -

Once the proud name and colors of the AFL and NFL American Conference - now the laughing stock and butt of any jokes targeted at Cleveland and the franchise as an organization - even Pittsburgh fans are upset because of the storied rivalry that isn't even worth mentioning anymore - I was at the game that "Turkey" Jones pile drived Terry Bradshaw into the frozen turf at Municipal Stadium - I saw Jack Lambert eat up Brian Sipe - the Kardiac Kids - Sudden Sam Rutigliano - Marty Shottenhimer - Bill Belichick - etc.---- and now this ------

It REALLY hurts - and I am sorry and ashamed for the fans that live and have to deal with this now for over 10 years - I moved to Atlanta in '85 but still kept my sports loyalties to Cleveland - I was born in Pittsburgh but never bled anything other than orange and brown. And now I have to think about going over to the Birds post Vick and at least having something to cheer for now and then -

Again - it REALLY hurts - and when Randy Lerner will get the complete message of his paying customers, only time will tell - in the meantime ------

WE CANNOT MAKE MISTAKES IN THE DRAFT, EVER AGAIN, FROM BUTCH DAVIS, TO CRENNEL, TO MANGINI AND ALL THEIR GM'S OF THE PAST, PURE AND SIMPLE DO NOT KNOW HOW TO PICK. WE COULD HAVE HAD ROTHLESBERGER, AND ADRIAN PETERSEN, YOU JUST CANNOT MAKE THOSE MISTAKES PERIOD. ALSO NGATA. THERE ARE ONLY A FEW PLAY MAKERS BUT THEY ARE THE ONES THAT WIN GAMES....WE HAVE NO BIG TIME PLAYMAKERS.

Jon Gruden's Ohio Roots Could Land Him in Cleveland
Kim Lakner by


The former coach also known as “Chucky” appears to be content in the Monday Night Football broadcast booth.



Then again, money talks, it always does.



Ex-Tampa Bay Buccaneers head coach Jon Gruden is one of many former coaches who could get back into the game within the next few years. Tony Dungy, Mike Shanahan, and Bill Cowher are other names currently out of coaching jobs.



The one-time Super Bowl champion and Sandusky, an Ohio native, grew up a Cleveland Browns fan. He and Mike Holmgren have a history that goes back to 1990, when he hired Gruden as one of the first quality control coaches in the NFL. At the time, Holmgren was the offensive coordinator of the San Francisco 49ers.



Holmgren eventually moved onto Green Bay where he became the Packers head coach and he wanted Gruden to join him and take over a wide receiver coaching position.



Gruden then went on to become the Eagles' offensive coordinator in 1995 and to Oakland for his first head coaching gig. His first and only Super Bowl victory came in 2002 with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers against his old team, the Raiders.



With all the speculation of Browns owner Randy Lerner being hot after Holmgren to run his football team, the possibilities are endless. If Holmgren does decide to become the Browns’ Director of Football Operations, Gruden could be his first choice as head coach.



One common denominator with both of these individuals are they are proven winners and have experience and success working in the positions that they would be assigned in Cleveland.



Holmgren was the general manager and head coach in Seattle and posted seven winning seasons in 10 years. He brought in a backup quarterback from Green Bay by the name of Matt Hasselbeck, and when healthy, he is a Pro-Bowl caliber player.



He drafted players such as linebackers Lofa Tatupu and Leroy Hill, cornerback Marcus Trufant, and tight end John Carlson.



One knock on Gruden is his inability or unwillingness to develop young quarterbacks. He signed Rich Gannon from the Kansas City Chiefs when he was head coach in Oakland.



When he took the Bucs' head coaching position, he signed Brad Johnson to a lucrative contract, but ended up winning a Super Bowl with him. He later brought in Jeff Garcia in 2007 and was reportedly very close to signing Brett Favre last season before he went to the New York Jets.



However, his defenses are solid and that’s something that has lacked in Cleveland.



Coaching players such as Rod Woodson, Charles Woodson, Sam Adams, Derrick Brooks, Simeon Rice, and John Lynch would give Gruden instant credibility and he, unlike Eric Mangini, has proven he can handle high profile, “loud” players like a Keyshawn Johnson and Bill Romanowski.



Randy Lerner has struck out twice with his head coach and general manager selections. Maybe the third time will be a charm. Bringing in Holmgren and Gruden would put him on the right track.


http://bleacherreport.com/arti...tm_source=newsletter

I'm all for it. Yesterday please.

Holmgren and Gruden ? I'm all IN ! Cowher blew us off once so leave him be..... Gruden still has the fire as shown on MNF and he is just what this team needs and is good with the media and fans ! PLEASE MAKE THIS HAPPEN FOOTBALL GODS......

I agree with John 75034 Lets get Gruden. Please Lerner contact him.

quote:

Originally posted by john75034:
Holmgren and Gruden ? I'm all IN ! Cowher blew us off once so leave him be..... Gruden still has the fire as shown on MNF and he is just what this team needs and is good with the media and fans ! PLEASE MAKE THIS HAPPEN FOOTBALL GODS......

Lol. Jon Gruden????? He's worthless. He got fired in Tampa because the owner called all the players and NOT ONE stuck up for him. He's been called a backstabber everywhere. He's a TERRIBLE Head Coach - before you babble about 1 Super Bowl - BArry Switzer won one too. Jon Gruden has no clue what a real QB is. He will make the QB situation here 1000000 times worse. I will go through the roof if Gruden the worthless is brought in here in any capacity. He's TERRIBLE.

quote:

Originally posted by akronjoe:

quote:

Originally posted by se7enzz9:
Mangini picked Barton, Bowens, and Elam. He knew these guys. The QB mess. Half the players on this roster are Mangini picks.

What is the product on display? Mack, Furry, Francies, and Coleman. Massa and Robo, probably. DV and the pig-sticker, maybe.

Four productive players, out of twenty-what?

You really want this guy to draft and sign next year? I guess it makes as much sense as starting the worst QB to hit the league in 20+ years.

He ran off Sean Jones,

His contract was up. He signed a one year deal with Philly to be a back-up.

quote:

Andre Davis

He was my favorite Brown. Still though - his contract was up. He was on the + side of 30, not the future of the team.

quote:

, Kellen Winslow,

Right on! He's an impact player. No way he'd play for a 1-7 team. Oh, wait - Tampa is 1-7.

quote:

Braylon Edwards,

Aren't the Jest 1-2 with him losing to the Bills?

quote:

Kevin Scheffer.

You mean Chicago's BACK-UP right tackle? Your mad that guy is gone?

quote:

he traded the #5 pick for Jets third teamers and a center...Kokonis has said he only agreed with the center pick ( Mack) and the rest were manginis.

Lol. I'd like to see that quote.

quote:

Kokonis has said he only heard of the Edwards pick on the radio, Hand picked by Mangini was kokonis a Gm in name only. And we scapegoat Kokonis.

Lol. Again - I'd like to see that quote. By the way - he had power in his contract. It's the only way we could hire him. It was his choice to not utilize it.

quote:

And Mangini stubbornly sticks with the worst starting QB in the NFL where every week brings a more wretched performance but Quinn sits as he had his 2.5 game tryout against the NFL elite.

He bailed out of the pocket too quick and made some bad decisions. He wasn't ready yet. He's starting on Monday.

quote:

But Lerner is sticking with Mangini.

As well he should stick with him.

quote:

Our groundhog day in Football Hell continues. lerner will have an email interview about it.
I doubt if anyone credible would want to come here should lerner actually cough up money and quit crying over the millions he blew in other poorly thought hires.

If he keeps firing people without a chance to turn things around - then you are right. If he gives people time to instill a real system - you will be proven 100% wrong.

Soup:

How do you improve your team if you don't resign the players you drafted?

It's interesting you can excuse Mangini so easily, when I think you are a believer that a team should be built with drafted players.

Well, no contract goes on forever. Joe Thomas's contract is due to finish also, so what are you going to do, trade him for a round 3???

Managers are hired to to that, to manage situations, to make deals and find a common ground.

yeah and Mangini has the QB situation all squared away ! Brad Johnson was no stiff !

quote:

Originally posted by Soup:

quote:

Originally posted by john75034:
Holmgren and Gruden ? I'm all IN ! Cowher blew us off once so leave him be..... Gruden still has the fire as shown on MNF and he is just what this team needs and is good with the media and fans ! PLEASE MAKE THIS HAPPEN FOOTBALL GODS......

Lol. Jon Gruden????? He's worthless. He got fired in Tampa because the owner called all the players and NOT ONE stuck up for him. He's been called a backstabber everywhere. He's a TERRIBLE Head Coach - before you babble about 1 Super Bowl - BArry Switzer won one too. Jon Gruden has no clue what a real QB is. He will make the QB situation here 1000000 times worse. I will go through the roof if Gruden the worthless is brought in here in any capacity. He's TERRIBLE.

quote:

Originally posted by rastanplan:
Soup:

How do you improve your team if you don't resign the players you drafted?

Mangini didn't draft Sean Jones. His knee was done and he wasn't a good safety to begin with. He went on to be a BACK-UP. You think it improves the team to keep an oft-injured guy who had 1 team talk to him and sign him to a one year deal?

Andra Davis - once again - he was on the + side of 30. His contract was up - we need a future replacement so we got a vet who knew the system already and a youth guy to teach.

Kellen Winslow - drafted by Butch Davis. Knees are shot, can't block, gonna want a huge contract (got one in Tampa). We weren't going to pay him

Braylon Edwards - wasn't going to talk to us in free agency. Hard to talk to a guy who refuses to play for you.

Kevin Shaeffer - anOVERPAID free agennt pick-up by Savage. He gave $36 million to a back-up.

quote:

It's interesting you can excuse Mangini so easily, when I think you are a believer that a team should be built with drafted players.

It should br built with drafted players WHO FIT YOUR SYSTEM. Only 2 of the guys mentioned were football young - Winslow and Edwards. Edwards wasn't going to re-sign with us and Winslow wasn't worth the $30 million he got.

quote:

Well, no contract goes on forever. Joe Thomas's contract is due to finish also, so what are you going to do, trade him for a round 3???

You re-sign Joe thomas. He's one of the best in the NFL. He fits your system, the other 2 don't.

quote:

Managers are hired to to that, to manage situations, to make deals and find a common ground.

Common ground - Edwards didn't want to be here and we didn't want him here. He didn't try when he was here. He wasn't going to be here next year as he was a UFA. So we got something for him.

Winslow wouldn't be here in 2 years. He'll be lucky if he can walk in 2 years.

He won a Super Bowl with Dungy's team, just like Switzer won with Johnson's team. Aside from that - look at Grudens history of QBs. He had 4 on the roster at the same time.

Jeff Garcia
Brian Griese
chris Simms
Luke McCown

He just collected them over and over. Gruden is a clueless coach. No idea what he's doing. If he comes here the team will become a hodge podge of worhtless free agents and bad drafts.

2002-2008 drafts were pretty much a bust except for Cadillac Williams - the only bust portion of it is his durability - which was unseen. He's a good player when healthy.

quote:

Originally posted by john75034:
yeah and Mangini has the QB situation all squared away ! Brad Johnson was no stiff !

quote:

Originally posted by Soup:

quote:

Originally posted by john75034:
Holmgren and Gruden ? I'm all IN ! Cowher blew us off once so leave him be..... Gruden still has the fire as shown on MNF and he is just what this team needs and is good with the media and fans ! PLEASE MAKE THIS HAPPEN FOOTBALL GODS......

Lol. Jon Gruden????? He's worthless. He got fired in Tampa because the owner called all the players and NOT ONE stuck up for him. He's been called a backstabber everywhere. He's a TERRIBLE Head Coach - before you babble about 1 Super Bowl - BArry Switzer won one too. Jon Gruden has no clue what a real QB is. He will make the QB situation here 1000000 times worse. I will go through the roof if Gruden the worthless is brought in here in any capacity. He's TERRIBLE.

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He won a Super Bowl with Dungy's team, just like Switzer won with Johnson's team.

Perhaps, but what team did he FACE in that Super Bowl? The team HE built in Oakland. He built a SB team under a DAVIS regime. NOT an easy task now is it?

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You re-sign Joe thomas. He's one of the best in the NFL. He fits your system, the other 2 don't.

I had no real problem with the Winslow trade. He had a bad wheel and wanted a redo on his contract. However, he most definitely fits in this WCO system. We MISS those hands.
Our lack of production at ALL receiving positions is killing us.
I believe we should have received more for Edwards but have no real problem with moving him either. You're right that he doesn't fit in the WCO. Really though neither do Momass or Robiskie and THAT worries me. Especially Robiskie.
You want to run the WCO you better have speed at the receiver position. You need guys that can turn short passes into big plays. That sound like our rookies? You see Robiskie or Momass turning a quick slant into a 50 yard touchdown?
We passed on the perfect WCO running back to take Veikune(who can't get a start when both our ILBS are out for the season). McKoy is a dandy little receiver coming out of the backfield for the Eagles. He has some real SPEED. A trait Mangini seems to eschew.
A serious component of the WCO is a receiving RB.
Yet I'm supposed to have complete faith in Mangini running the draft as well as coaching the team? If he's going to run the WCO he damned well better DRAFT for it. Get some SPEED on this team.
A lot better men than him have tried to wear both hats and failed miserably. I have seen NO indication Mangini is the exception to the rule.

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You re-sign Joe thomas. He's one of the best in the NFL. He fits your system, the other 2 don't.

Again, I completly disagree with you.

First, if you are only going to resign the players you drafted, you have to stay on a team for more then 4 years...

Second, you cannot win in this league without good Wr's, and good Wr's fit any type of offense. It takes 2-3 years for a WR to start being productive, so are we going to wait for so long for the Browns to start being competitive?

Third, why do you need a LT if you are not going to rely in the passing game? When time comes up to re-sign Joe Thomas, he is going to want to be paid and going to want to be the best paid LT in the game. Using your argument, why would we do it? LT are not vital for WCO, an average LT is more then enough.

The best tandem of safeties we had here in quit some time were Russell and Jones. In those times Jones was playing good football, and I honestly think no one is going to excel playing alongside Pool. Also, our starting safeties wouldn't even be backups for other teams in the NFL.

KWII is playing, got traded and got a good contract, so I don't understand the knee issue you keep on bringing as an excuse.

BE is like any other plyer in the league, he just wants to get paid. Ochocinco is still on the Bengals, and so are many other vocal WR's.

Regarding Andra, Mangini not only didn't resign Andra, but he passed on the 2 best ILB to come to the draft in some years. End result, we have the worst ILB's in the league.

quote:

Originally posted by rastanplan:

quote:

You re-sign Joe thomas. He's one of the best in the NFL. He fits your system, the other 2 don't.

Again, I completly disagree with you.

First, if you are only going to resign the players you drafted, you have to stay on a team for more then 4 years...

Second, you cannot win in this league without good Wr's, and good Wr's fit any type of offense. It takes 2-3 years for a WR to start being productive, so are we going to wait for so long for the Browns to start being competitive?

Third, why do you need a LT if you are not going to rely in the passing game? When time comes up to re-sign Joe Thomas, he is going to want to be paid and going to want to be the best paid LT in the game. Using your argument, why would we do it? LT are not vital for WCO, an average LT is more then enough.

We aren't in a WCO. 2nd - the Eagles are and they traded for Jason Peters. there goes your thoery on LT in the WCO.

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The best tandem of safeties we had here in quit some time were Russell and Jones. In those times Jones was playing good football,

Now THAT is funny. Russell was not good. He got toasted all the time in pass coverage - he was slow to see the ball. Jones had 1 decent year, other than that he was always burned deep and by the end couldn't tackle anymore which is why he got only a 1 year deal from the Eagles to be a back-up.

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and I honestly think no one is going to excel playing alongside Pool. Also, our starting safeties wouldn't even be backups for other teams in the NFL.

Pool has played fairly well this year.

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KWII is playing, got traded and got a good contract, so I don't understand the knee issue you keep on bringing as an excuse.

Let's see - he can't practice during the week. He's probably got 2 years left in him. He's not worth what another 1-7 team paid him.

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BE is like any other plyer in the league, he just wants to get paid. Ochocinco is still on the Bengals, and so are many other vocal WR's.

Edwards quit trying. Chad Johnson kept playing.

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Regarding Andra, Mangini not only didn't resign Andra, but he passed on the 2 best ILB to come to the draft in some years. End result, we have the worst ILB's in the league.

Lol - Maluaga is NOT a good ILB, especially in a 3-4. who's the other ILB you are referring to in this draft?

Soup, I see its very hard to argue with you, but I will give it a try.

Main LT duties is to protect the passer, or am I not right? WCO relies in quick, short passes, hence the need for extended pass protection isn't there, so knowing that a team has limited resources, due to the cap, why would they tie a substancial part of the cap to a position that isn't vital for them? Makes no sence.

Also Peters is very different from Joe Thomas, Joe is a finess player, while Peters is a Power player, that fits well in a WC type of offense.

Regarding Russell and Jones vs Pool, for sure its a question of opinion. IMOH Pool stinks, he gets some highlights, but that's it. Russell was a cerebral player, one that made the others around him look better. Jones has all the tools, and again, IMHO they made a nice Tandem of safeties, not stellar but at least average.

KWII is playing, or isn't he? Started 8 games, has more TD's them all the Browns receivers together, this playing for a bad team, with bad QB's. Also TB wouldn't make one of the best paid TE's in the game if he had problems.

Regarding Chad and BE, well last year Chad was also struggling, and so do many other receivers that play in bad teams. Braylon is doing Ok with the Jets, isn't he? Just one question, Did Braylon ever asked to be traded? If not why do you insist he didn't want to play for the Browns?

Maualaluga and James Laurianitis were the best ILB prospects to come out in years, saying they can't play in a 3-4 is IMHO a pathethic excuse. Why wouldn't Rey fit a 3-4? He's fast, has intincts and hits hard. He would excel against the rush, whish is vital for us. James is a cerebral player, the type of player we lack in our D, perfect IMHO for a 3-4, to be the cornerstone of our D in a few years.

Regarding our MLB's, well we are one of the worst Rush D's in the league, and we are worst then last year. That speaks volumes of the quality of our players, specially if you consider that they are playing behind SR.

Man I was salivating with the prospect of Maualuga flying through the gaps created by SR, and hitting hard the ball carier or the QB, instead we have this ***** LB's that can't even tackle...

Laurianitis would be perfect to replace Willy Mac in a commanding role of our D.

Wow a lot has happened since I last posted on this thread late Oct???

Kokinis of course gone...a Football Czar hiring soon to be and a review of Mangini and the program will be made with either stay the course action or complete change.

But even in that course of action Mangini is going to get his 16 games at least to be evaluated.

As for the debate on the abilities of Mangini to build something good. Many of the references of what he did there were pretty amusing.

I know one poster wrote the choice of Mangold at Center pretty much a given cause of his rep by the sports media so why give Mangini any props... Ya mean like the Given of Alex Mack and the claim by some that he was a stupid choice???

Ya mean the fact in that same Round earlier they took a Left Tackle...TWO OLmen in the same draft???? That took Guts and will keep the Jets pretty strong for quite some time.

Then of course there is the complaint of all the Jets and all the NO GREAT TALENT that he brought in...Hey, its quite apparent to me that he made a conscious effort to only invest in 2nd tier talent...Something the PATS were famous for until the last few season - but while they were building that team they did it with 2nd tier FAs not super stars.

But here in lies the problem. In NE and remember that baby wasn't built over night.

In NE the 2nd tier FAs got a lot of props as when there were injuries to the team there was no drop off in the product on the field.

1. Those 2nd tier guys were Smart and versatile.

2. They were filling in just a piece of Large puzzle. Predicated on team play rather than individuals.

Well this is the difference. The ELAMs, Bartons, Bowens, brought over were asked to start from the get go...not be Back up players and then if an injury occurred to fill in.

That is because this team did have gaps in talent. Sorry AD was not a good starter. Sorry Jones was not a good starter...Sorry Hall is too raw.

But is this all Mangini's fault.

Ideally it would have been nice if Barton was a back up and AD a stud so that when DQ goes down Barton would come in and provide little drop off cause he knows the Defense.

But AD was not...so BArton starts.

Rookies....sorry any team that relies on Rookies to make the difference in their INITIAL season. Aren't going anywhere. It doesn't mean rookies don't start on good teams. It means it is hard for them to develop on teams that don't have the Machine working already.

Clearly we didn't.

Fans see this all as a negative pure and simple cause we are losing. Can't deny that as it smacks us in the face.

But the complaint of all the 2nd tier acquisitions were stupid is well stupid. What is our one bright spot.

Our Special Teams Units...and its a direct result of those acquisitions.

I know most will state...OH wow big deal ST. But it is 25% of the key to winning games.
Offense, Defense, ST and Turnovers.

Those pretty much define who the winning team will be.

Of course Defense and Offense statistically show us as horrendous - but I think the Defense has shown improvement despite key injuries. I do see one of the worst Offensive display so far this season as the Primary and Glaring deficiency on this team.

And yet what I also see is something different than what we saw in Expansion Offense and Offense of last half of the season with Dorsey and Gratkowski at the helm. Compared to this Offense we are watching.

We are failing miserably in 3rd down efficiency. But all too often in this season those 3rd downs have been of the 3rd n 2, 3, 4 variety than in those Expansion and Dorseyesque Offenses seeing primarily 3rd n 8, 9 +

Most of the NFL are like 70% in those 3rd n short situations. We have been around 25-30%.

What I'm getting at is there is definitely something Seriously WRONG...but its not an Up n Down our Offense sucks. I'm sorry, not when a short pass or run gets us in that HIGH PERCENTAGE 3rd down area...like it has for a big part of this season.

We have to get that part of the game FIXED...and a big, big part of that has been the play of our QBs up to this point. That one position is not the sole thing wrong but its been one heck of a big ANCHOR for this team.

We have a lot of good prospective young players of this team to yet mature into their Prime worth.
Marcus Bernard, Costanza, Estandia, Francies, Hall, Jennings, Lawson, Mack, Maiava, MoMas, McD, BQ, Ratliff, Robo, Rubin, Stuckey, JoeT, Trusnik, DV, Wright, Davis and Steptoe.

These are all the players who are in their 3rd or less years of service into the NFL are some going to prove Useless? Sure. Are some going to keep on progressing to be Good to Great Players? Sure.

But the team cannot count on most of these players to Lead them...Only one can really and that is Joe Thomas. In the next 8 games we will see if BQ can. But the rest are all still developing. A lot of solid Grunts I think...3 by my count. JoeT, Mack and Rubin - these are in an area that is not sexy but vital for teams to succeed. Davis, Robo, Momas...will One or More become Good to Great? We don't know and our Offense isn't clicking to find out anything at this point. Plug those guys into an Eagle's Offense or a Vikings Offense and maybe we can say WOW! Or Not...but I think its Wrong to evaluate those kids on this Offense. Rookies don't define an Offense. They have to blend in and become an additional toy for the OC to utilize but an OC cannot build the Offense around rookies. Add EWright as one progressing as an NFL Good to Great player to the list with the Grunts.

btw...since last posting I see the Jets under Ryan are 4-4 tell me how bad Mangini was again???

I can't tell if Mangini will be here once we hire our Power Guy - what I do know Randy stated that the power guy is to Bring this Organization together and HELP the embattled Mangini.

Randy still believes in what Mangini is building. I don't think Randy is stupid by any means. What I'm getting at. Is possibly Mangini "IS" the right guy. If so the Power guy will definitely give him the opportunity to sell him on the GOALS. Odds are there will be change...but its not as 100% as most probably think and for good reason. Mangini is making strides - he grossly mishandled the QB situation Both young QB's have played Well Under their potential and in the Mental aspects of the game - I do blame Mangini and as stated its a big part of our horrendous play this year.

If Mangini does GO...no doubt in my mind it will be SPECIFICALLY because of the way he handled our QB situation. But guess what. The season is only half over. We can continue to flounder...or make strides to getting better. So I'll leave some scramble room for Mangini...after the next 8 games enfold.

JMHO

quote:

Originally posted by eotab:
Wow a lot has happened since I last posted on this thread late Oct???

Kokinis of course gone...a Football Czar hiring soon to be and a review of Mangini and the program will be made with either stay the course action or complete change.

But even in that course of action Mangini is going to get his 16 games at least to be evaluated.

As for the debate on the abilities of Mangini to build something good. Many of the references of what he did there were pretty amusing.

I know one poster wrote the choice of Mangold at Center pretty much a given cause of his rep by the sports media so why give Mangini any props... Ya mean like the Given of Alex Mack and the claim by some that he was a stupid choice???

Ya mean the fact in that same Round earlier they took a Left Tackle...TWO OLmen in the same draft???? That took Guts and will keep the Jets pretty strong for quite some time.

Then of course there is the complaint of all the Jets and all the NO GREAT TALENT that he brought in...Hey, its quite apparent to me that he made a conscious effort to only invest in 2nd tier talent...Something the PATS were famous for until the last few season - but while they were building that team they did it with 2nd tier FAs not super stars.

But here in lies the problem. In NE and remember that baby wasn't built over night.

In NE the 2nd tier FAs got a lot of props as when there were injuries to the team there was no drop off in the product on the field.

1. Those 2nd tier guys were Smart and versatile.

2. They were filling in just a piece of Large puzzle. Predicated on team play rather than individuals.

Well this is the difference. The ELAMs, Bartons, Bowens, brought over were asked to start from the get go...not be Back up players and then if an injury occurred to fill in.

That is because this team did have gaps in talent. Sorry AD was not a good starter. Sorry Jones was not a good starter...Sorry Hall is too raw.

But is this all Mangini's fault.

Ideally it would have been nice if Barton was a back up and AD a stud so that when DQ goes down Barton would come in and provide little drop off cause he knows the Defense.

But AD was not...so BArton starts.

Rookies....sorry any team that relies on Rookies to make the difference in their INITIAL season. Aren't going anywhere. It doesn't mean rookies don't start on good teams. It means it is hard for them to develop on teams that don't have the Machine working already.

Clearly we didn't.

Fans see this all as a negative pure and simple cause we are losing. Can't deny that as it smacks us in the face.

But the complaint of all the 2nd tier acquisitions were stupid is well stupid. What is our one bright spot.

Our Special Teams Units...and its a direct result of those acquisitions.

I know most will state...OH wow big deal ST. But it is 25% of the key to winning games.
Offense, Defense, ST and Turnovers.

Those pretty much define who the winning team will be.

Of course Defense and Offense statistically show us as horrendous - but I think the Defense has shown improvement despite key injuries. I do see one of the worst Offensive display so far this season as the Primary and Glaring deficiency on this team.

And yet what I also see is something different than what we saw in Expansion Offense and Offense of last half of the season with Dorsey and Gratkowski at the helm. Compared to this Offense we are watching.

We are failing miserably in 3rd down efficiency. But all too often in this season those 3rd downs have been of the 3rd n 2, 3, 4 variety than in those Expansion and Dorseyesque Offenses seeing primarily 3rd n 8, 9 +

Most of the NFL are like 70% in those 3rd n short situations. We have been around 25-30%.

What I'm getting at is there is definitely something Seriously WRONG...but its not an Up n Down our Offense sucks. I'm sorry, not when a short pass or run gets us in that HIGH PERCENTAGE 3rd down area...like it has for a big part of this season.

We have to get that part of the game FIXED...and a big, big part of that has been the play of our QBs up to this point. That one position is not the sole thing wrong but its been one heck of a big ANCHOR for this team.

We have a lot of good prospective young players of this team to yet mature into their Prime worth.
Marcus Bernard, Costanza, Estandia, Francies, Hall, Jennings, Lawson, Mack, Maiava, MoMas, McD, BQ, Ratliff, Robo, Rubin, Stuckey, JoeT, Trusnik, DV, Wright, Davis and Steptoe.

These are all the players who are in their 3rd or less years of service into the NFL are some going to prove Useless? Sure. Are some going to keep on progressing to be Good to Great Players? Sure.

But the team cannot count on most of these players to Lead them...Only one can really and that is Joe Thomas. In the next 8 games we will see if BQ can. But the rest are all still developing. A lot of solid Grunts I think...3 by my count. JoeT, Mack and Rubin - these are in an area that is not sexy but vital for teams to succeed. Davis, Robo, Momas...will One or More become Good to Great? We don't know and our Offense isn't clicking to find out anything at this point. Plug those guys into an Eagle's Offense or a Vikings Offense and maybe we can say WOW! Or Not...but I think its Wrong to evaluate those kids on this Offense. Rookies don't define an Offense. They have to blend in and become an additional toy for the OC to utilize but an OC cannot build the Offense around rookies. Add EWright as one progressing as an NFL Good to Great player to the list with the Grunts.

btw...since last posting I see the Jets under Ryan are 4-4 tell me how bad Mangini was again???

I can't tell if Mangini will be here once we hire our Power Guy - what I do know Randy stated that the power guy is to Bring this Organization together and HELP the embattled Mangini.

Randy still believes in what Mangini is building. I don't think Randy is stupid by any means. What I'm getting at. Is possibly Mangini "IS" the right guy. If so the Power guy will definitely give him the opportunity to sell him on the GOALS. Odds are there will be change...but its not as 100% as most probably think and for good reason. Mangini is making strides - he grossly mishandled the QB situation Both young QB's have played Well Under their potential and in the Mental aspects of the game - I do blame Mangini and as stated its a big part of our horrendous play this year.

If Mangini does GO...no doubt in my mind it will be SPECIFICALLY because of the way he handled our QB situation. But guess what. The season is only half over. We can continue to flounder...or make strides to getting better. So I'll leave some scramble room for Mangini...after the next 8 games enfold.

JMHO

Whoa! Let's not let rationality and perspective get in the way of making knee-jerk reactions.

quote:

problem. In NE and remember that baby wasn't built over night.

Eo

Lets just forget offense righ now, although using the same arguments you are using, we can say that Offense this year has showned a remarcable upgrade relating to last year. At least we still have 2 ealthy QB's....


Analyzing the D. This is the worst D in Browns history, stats don't lie. We have the worst Rush D I can remember, and most if not all of the players are Manginis kind of players, probably except for SR...

NE was able to build a team with FA and 2nd tier players beacause they were one of the few teams playing the 3-4, so the price to pay for 3-4 players was much cheaper.

Now when almost everybody is running the 3-4, its impossible to find cheap tallent, hence impossible to mimic NE. On the Offense, NE found gold in Tom Brady, what are the chances for the Browns to do the same?

So here is why Mangini's plan is fundamentaly wrong, even considering he isn't Belichick.

On D he will only get subpar players, since most of the teams are playing the same type of D, while BB was able to find good players for his system. On O NE had Tom Brady, a future HOFER...

Belichick was a visionary when we went to the 3-4, this allowed him to save on D and reinforce other parts of the team. Finding Tom Brady was the icing on the cake that made NE a dinasty.

I would say, there is virtually no chances of reproducing NE's suceess. Nowadays if you hire scrubs from other teams, you will have scrub's playing not future HOFERs

quote:

Analyzing the D. This is the worst D in Browns history, stats don't lie.

If you make that statement...Yes, then guess what Stats do LIE if your view is this is the WORST DEFENSE in our history.

Obviously they do lie. I've watched the team and we play relatively well...Well enough to be able to win games. Not Dominate Games with the D.

But I see the strength of the D simply get Sapped with absolutely not a one POSITIVE reinforcement from the Offense. And they lose their mental edge and then...boom the STATS PILE ON.

But we are stopping the run...we are creating pressure (not without Ryan getting creative) its just the Defense at some point mentally give up. And although anyone can prop themselves up and Say NO NO then they don't belong in football cause Giving Up is not ACCEPTABLE...hey its Reality. I don't Accept it but I understand it and why it is there.

So sorry if STATS is all you got...no use debating. Cause the fact you claim STATS DON'T lie is so far off with my opinion and knowledge...there is no way I can explain it to you well enough for you to accept it.

I just watch the games...and the Defense is nowhere close to dominating Games so that who cares what the offense does or doesn't do.

But they are not Bad/Horrendous as the Stats would portray them as. They actually have shown improvement as the season progressed. Key guys are falling so we'll see how the D holds up.

And comparing BB's situation in your mind you think it was overnight but it wasn't...it took several years to build that D.

DV 2n round pick...Bruschi 3rd round pick...Bruschi didn't start until year 4.

What was the talent of the Base D with BB and what is it with EM? I know they already had McGinest...btw you see a McG on this team for Mangini to take in and make a stud OLB with for his D???

Brady? that was a once in a million situation - so Mangini is no BB cause he can't get a 6th round pick QB yet (in one draft) to be a HOFer?

First off....EM is not a wanabee clone of BB...your opinion seems to be formed by STATs and the media...like the media don't lie...like stats don't lie....lol

BB was a visionary???? woah there - he copied his vision from Parcells. And his 3-4 did squat until RAC came on board

JMHO