quote:

however what a great move that would be for this organization.

He would bring INSTANT RESPECT to our organization. From EVERYONE!!!! MEDIA, PLAYERS, COACHES!! Thats why I included him in my Wish List.

Here are some more tidbits on the Koki ordeal from today's Plain Dealer:

From Terry Pluto:
There are two conflicting whispers about demise of Kokinis. He arrived with the contractual promise of having the final say in football decisions, being a real general manager. But he also was picked by coach Eric Mangini, who essentially was hiring his own boss. This undercut Kokinis' influence, and eventually led to his firing when they clashed over personnel decisions.

The other point of view is Kokinis was almost immediately uneasy in the job, missing the comfort zone of the Baltimore Ravens and the strong leadership of General Manager Ozzie Newsome. It wasn't long before he seemed overwhelmed by the challenges of the Browns.

I'm not sure what view is correct, both probably have some merit.

But I can say that I had several background conversations with Kokinis before the season began, and he was extremely guarded. It wasn't that he refused to say anything. Rather, he seemed unsure of what he should say. He could not articulate a vision for the team, or even explain in any depth the moves that had been made.
http://www.cleveland.com/pluto...rowns_randy_ler.html

From an anonymous "league source":
A league source said an area scout from another team was approached by a Browns official at a college game about a month ago and asked if he'd be interested in becoming the Browns' director of college scouting.

The source said the Browns official told the scout that they were looking to replace General Manager George Kokinis and others in the football operations department. Word filtered back to Kokinis and he was shocked, the source said.

The Browns' current director of college scouting is Pat Roberts, who's been with the Browns for five seasons.

From former Browns GM [and current Bitterman] Mike Lombardi
Former Browns GM Mike Lombardi wrote Tuesday on nationalfootballpost.com that Kokinis was so out of the loop that he wasn't even involved in the Braylon Edwards trade on Oct. 7.

Both Kokinis and Mangini worked for Lombardi in the 1990s in the Bill Belichick era. Lombardi also said in an interview on WKNR AM/850 Tuesday night that "George demonstrated that maybe he was a little bit not prepared for the job and his role was reduced."

He said the fact Kokinis and Mangini were clashing almost since the start was "the worst-kept secret in the NFL." He also said Mangini is running the Browns like "a true dictatorship."

Messiah Marty's lack of interest in helping us out of this mess:
Former Browns coach Marty Schottenheimer said on his Sirius NFL radio show that he's not interested in a consultant role with the Browns.

"I don't even see that kind of a role for me," he said. "I'm not familiar enough with what they have in terms of their front office. Let somebody else do that. It's really a very unusual circumstance and it's going to take some dramatic measures in my mind to be able to get the thing headed in the right direction.

"The bottom line for them right now is they don't have a real good football team. They're not playing even to the level that the talent is expressed and it's going to be a very, very difficult circumstance."

He said the Browns should be concentrating on trying win games instead of firing their general manager in midseason.

"You need to leave some sense of stability at least through this season because players that are there signed to long term contracts are thinking, 'What in the world is going on here?,'" he said. "You worry about the reaction of your players and, believe me, let's not make any mistake about this: That feeling that a player has about his organization is an integral part of their ability to perform at the highest level."

http://www.cleveland.com/brown...nsinsider.html

We can keep Daboll for now. I mean, its not like he's been handed the tools of a successful offense in the first place.

Let me throw this into the debate!

Could it be the national media is a little hard on on Mangini, and we are all following like sheep?

Could the truth be Kokinis was not ready to be the GM. Since Kokinis was a friend, Mangini attempted to cover up and do both coach and GM until Kokinis came up to speed.

The media says you have to hire a GM before you hire a coach. Why did Randy fire Kokinis? It makes better sense to fire Mangini. Then Kokinis could bring in his coach. Instead we see it different. Randy may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer, but he does hire consultants to help. So, why did Kokinis get the boot?

On the draft, I still can't see how everyone is still writing it off. Holy cow it's been eight weeks. How well are the second round draft picks playing for Detroit and Seattle? Teams who drafted before the Browns. For that matter name the second round picks!

For the very fact the national media does not like Mangini, I'm going lone wolf and keeping the faith. I've been wrong before what is one more time!!!

Interesting and possibly revealing post...thanks, Flap.

so these rumors about accorsi already being our new GM are completely false?

unfortunately, they are false..

So will we have this position (whatever it might end up being) filled by our next game...a week and a half ?????....what are the chances, How does Learner handle this now ???

quote:

Originally posted by dawgnic:
So will we have this position (whatever it might end up being) filled by our next game...a week and a half ?????....what are the chances, How does Learner handle this now ???

The problem is RL does not know what he's going to do. This is such a mess and he will have to pay out the arse to get anyon e credibled in here to try and turn this around.

quote:

Originally posted by Superman:
One down, two more to go! Fire Eric Randy, then sell the team!

YOu make no sense. How can you fire the owner?LOL

quote:

Let me throw this into the debate!

Could it be the national media is a little hard on on Mangini, and we are all following like sheep?

Could the truth be Kokinis was not ready to be the GM. Since Kokinis was a friend, Mangini attempted to cover up and do both coach and GM until Kokinis came up to speed.

The media says you have to hire a GM before you hire a coach. Why did Randy fire Kokinis? It makes better sense to fire Mangini. Then Kokinis could bring in his coach. Instead we see it different. Randy may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer, but he does hire consultants to help. So, why did Kokinis get the boot?

On the draft, I still can't see how everyone is still writing it off. Holy cow it's been eight weeks. How well are the second round draft picks playing for Detroit and Seattle? Teams who drafted before the Browns. For that matter name the second round picks!

You actually do have a point. If Mangini STOLE the power why is he the one still here? If Kokonis let him take it because he couldn't handle the job it makes sense why he got fired.

As far as the draft picks, Mack is doing fine. The WRs, well look who's been throwing to them...Still not sold Veikulne at all.

quote:

Originally posted by davegut:
when has he spent any money and what players have showed up other then Joe Thomas

Are you serious? How many coaching staffs and GM's is he paying right now? Remember Bentley and the ridiculous contracts to DA and Stallworth? The man has and will spend money, his problem is who he's given keys to the vault.

I personally don't want the team sold to anyone else. I think Lerner gets us and how we feel and does feel bad about how he's disappointed all of us. Lets be honest here though, anyone who says they haven't made bad, rash decisions is a liar. Randy just needs to step back, take a deep breath, get some good advice(like Accorsi's) and make some decisions to move forward.

quote:

Originally posted by WolfpackBrownsfan:

quote:

Let me throw this into the debate!

Could it be the national media is a little hard on on Mangini, and we are all following like sheep?

Could the truth be Kokinis was not ready to be the GM. Since Kokinis was a friend, Mangini attempted to cover up and do both coach and GM until Kokinis came up to speed.

The media says you have to hire a GM before you hire a coach. Why did Randy fire Kokinis? It makes better sense to fire Mangini. Then Kokinis could bring in his coach. Instead we see it different. Randy may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer, but he does hire consultants to help. So, why did Kokinis get the boot?

On the draft, I still can't see how everyone is still writing it off. Holy cow it's been eight weeks. How well are the second round draft picks playing for Detroit and Seattle? Teams who drafted before the Browns. For that matter name the second round picks!

You actually do have a point. If Mangini STOLE the power why is he the one still here? If Kokonis let him take it because he couldn't handle the job it makes sense why he got fired.

As far as the draft picks, Mack is doing fine. The WRs, well look who's been throwing to them...Still not sold Veikulne at all.

Mangini gets a bad rap because he gives the press nothing to write about! Reporters are so bad that need to be spoon fed quotes and info. instaed of actually researching and investigating real stories. This is one of the most plausible things I have read.

Mangini thought Kokinos could handle the job and he was wrong...The phone records tell me Kokinos was the one going behind backs here and throwing people under the bus or looking for another "cake" job like he had at BAlt!

IMO EM will be here the rest of the year and then RL will bring in some credible Football operations guy (Holgrem or someone like that) I live in Tampa and no way Dungy is getting back into the game IMO. If this football guy wants and likes what EM is doing- he will stay but chances are he will bring in his own guy

Holgrem=Offense=Morningwig or someone similar!

I guess it doesnt mean much at the end of the day considering how bad the browns really are but this circumstance with Kokinis being fired and Randy Lerner meeting with the 2 protesting fans are why cleveland browns fans are hands down the greatest fans in sports, period. No other fanbase has that much influence over what happens with their team.

The decision to start quinn this season I guarantee was made because of the overwhelming lobbying by the fans. Lerner and Mangini heard it and obliged. Now, The fans are pissed off and fed up with the utter embarrassment this team is that we wanted someone fired, we wanted SOMETHING to be done and it was. Whether or not the decision to fire Kokinis was made a few weeks ago is beside the point, the fans were grumbling with their unhappiness since mangini and kokinis were brought in. I guess in a way that makes Lerner an even better owner, he listens to the people that pay his bills.

Greatest fans in the world.

quote:

Originally posted by eotab:

quote:

however what a great move that would be for this organization.

He would bring INSTANT RESPECT to our organization. From EVERYONE!!!! MEDIA, PLAYERS, COACHES!! Thats why I included him in my Wish List.

He's already said he isnt interested in taking on a front-office role, and that was with Tampa and Indy...why would he want to come here? I know its just your wish list but its more likely that Paul Brown will come back to save us.

Anybody have a time machine? With 11 picks[so far], and a small payroll, Paul Brown would turn this team in a year.

Calling the next Paul Brown! Your Browns need your courage, fortitude, and creativity ASAP.

One thing that I have learned about life and, thankfully I've been around a little while- Never say never. Most people choose to stand in the shadows of great men and curse the darkness, while a brave few choose to stand in the light and cast their own shadows. Mr. Lerner is looking for a great man right now. As a fan I'll wish him the best of luck, and keep him and our beloved franchise in my prayers that he is successful for all of our sakes.

quote:

One thing that I have learned about life and, thankfully I've been around a little while- Never say never. Most people choose to stand in the shadows of great men and curse the darkness, while a brave few choose to stand in the light and cast their own shadows. Mr. Lerner is looking for a great man right now. As a fan I'll wish him the best of luck, and keep him and our beloved franchise in my prayers that he is successful for all of our sakes.

We may still be talking to Accorsi.

http://bleacherreport.com/arti...-depsite-his-denials

ESPN had a discussion today with an NFL Columnist that brought up the fact that Mangini and Kokinas already had disagreements, beginning as way back as late February. Supposedly, a HIGHLY TOUTED FREE AGENT was in cleveland for a visit and was about ready to sign a contract with the Browns. Kokinas said he had everything ready, but was told that Mangini needed to stop by and talk to the player and his agent prior to signing. Supposedly Mangini never showed up, kept the player waiting for hours, before the player left the facilities at 5pm that day to take a flight back home. Kokinas at that time was told that Eric needed to agree on all player signings, no questions ask, thus it sounded like Lerner had already made Eric a few promises early on.

But Kokinas came out today and said the Browns let a BIG OFFSEASON ACQUISITION get away, because Eric was too stubborn and that the guy was not his type of guy.

but something had to be done for Eric kick Kokinas under the bus and get him fired, would you think? They have been supposedly close friends for over 20 yrs. wonder if it has anything to do personal affairs, like Kokinas maybe was caught "with his pants down"... sexual relations with either Mangini's assistant (who got canned the week before) or Eric's wife.

In Mangini's press conference he states he'll be in discussions in picking the new GM.

Wow...this so contradicts what dawgalexander posted ESPN discussed. I'm not saying dawg is wrong. I'm amazed how the media portrays the story versus Mangini. For a coach who is on the chopping block, you would think be pretty brash to say he is in the decision process.

And the hits just keep on commin´.....

i see some good points with the thaught that lerner may not be the right owner for the browns. but i strongly disagree. this is a guy who did inherit the team, CORRECT. but this is also the same guy who loves this team. and that shows in the way he has decided to step aside and hire the BEST candidate for the g.m. position. he DOES want this team to win and he realizes that to do so he needs a good leader in the office. which i look for him to acquire (he does after all, have some VERY DEEP pockets). im willing to stand beside this guy because i know that in todays NFL if you have an owner who truly loves his team, then your damn well lucky. lets not forget that he is willing to give up control for the best of the team.

"Personal and Professional Misconduct" screams sexual harrassment to me. That is just my gut feeling, don't know anything

I wonder who the FA was that Kokinis had nearly signed, sealed and delivered.

Looking thru old news stories on FA's who visited I see S-James Butler NYG, CB Jabari Greer had visits.

The FA's we did end up signing were a complete collection of stiffs, many of which didn't make the 53. Our coach and management could make Christmas depressing.

If that story is true, that Eric Cartman (RESPECT MY AUTHORITY!) screwed up a prime FA he is bigger tool than a pipe wrench. "His type of player" - BS!! His type of player stinks, and that is not a rumor.

Been bugging me who the possible FA was in that rumor.

If true, me thinks it was Jabari Greer Corner

JMHGuess

Possibly Kokinis' discomfort was in his role.

I'll wait for the book

quote:

Originally posted by Chitownbrown:
I wonder who the FA was that Kokinis had nearly signed, sealed and delivered.

Looking thru old news stories on FA's who visited I see S-James Butler NYG, CB Jabari Greer had visits.

The FA's we did end up signing were a complete collection of stiffs, many of which didn't make the 53. Our coach and management could make Christmas depressing.

If that story is true, that Eric Cartman (RESPECT MY AUTHORITY!) screwed up a prime FA he is bigger tool than a pipe wrench. "His type of player" - BS!! His type of player stinks, and that is not a rumor.

Yeah i think we fired the wrong person. Should have kept Kokinis and gave him a new coach. I think Mangini was the problem it seemed like Kokinis wanted to be doing his job and Mangini thinks he's a football genius and won't listen to anyone except himself. I also heard on TV they were interviewing a beat reporter from Akron that covers the Browns say Kokinis wanted to draft different guys than what Mangini did. Supposedly they agreed on Mack but, the reporter was saying Kokinis wanted to draft Maualuga when he saw him fall to their 2nd round pick and a few different others the rest of the way. Seems to me i would have liked Kokinis being in charge of the draft a lot more. The only problem i really have with Mangini's draft was the 2nd round. I don't mind Mack because, he should be the center for at least 10 years so that's not a bad pick. My problem was the 2nd round and actually i don't have a problem with Massaqoui but, the other 2 picks were flat out bad. He takes Robiskie and i would have taken Maualuga or Alphonso Smith. Then he took Veikune and i would have taken Phil Loadholt. We should have had 4 starters in the first 4 picks but, instead we got 2.
An O-Line of Thomas,Steinbach,Mack,RG,Loadholt looks pretty good to me especially when you could quite possibly be set at the 3 key O-Line positions for at least 8 years being LT,C,RT.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: TAP,

quote:

In Mangini's press conference he states he'll be in discussions in picking the new GM.

WOW. I hope this is not true, because no one with any credibility would even consider coming to Cleveland if that were true. It sounds like Mangini would just be looking for another stooge.

We fired Kokinis for Mangini's mistakes. Plain and simple. This just shows that Lerner is a joke. We should've fired Mangini and let Rob Ryan take over as interim HC. I'd love to hire Marty but based on his quotes he won't come here. I'd like to clean up our coaching staff and hire a solid GM and maybe hire Mike Shannahan for HC. We hire Shannahan, and we will run the football. We should keep Ryan as DC and hire a good OC like Mike Martz. We haven't hired experienced and successful coaches since our return in '99. That points straight to the Lerner family and the coaches themselves.
We also blew the '09 draft. Looks like only Mack and Massaquoi will be starters for the future. Then again, we refuse to see what the young guys like Hall and Francais can do. That is what kills me. This year is a wash. We should play the young guys and see what they can do. We may have 11 picks but now we need everything. IF WE DON'T FIRE MANGINI, NO FA'S WILL WANT TO COME TO CLEVELAND. We almost have to hire Gruden, Shannahan, Marty, Cowher, ect. A coach that has league wide respect. Randy, can't you see that you need to cut the head off the beast (mangini) in order to restore this franchise????

According to the news at noon, the two guys who met with Lerner yesterday spoke with him for 2 hours. If he didn't care, he would have met with them for 10-15 minutes tops, then boogied on out.

They say they have 100% confidence he will make it right. They say he does care. They say they can't say what he said he's going to do, but that it's all going in the right direction.

I think Kokinis got fired because he didn't stand up to mangini and take the GM's power away from him, and I wouldn't be surprised if most of the FO gets replaced before draft day.

Remember, Lerner will be listening to advice much more carefully now, and if we do end up with a new HC after this season, I doubt that HC will pick the next GM. I don't want Lerner to sell the team, I just want him to listen to the right people.

HERE YA GO GUYS...HERE IS A READ FROM THE PLAIN DEALER..should put a big ole smile on your face. So nice to see that lerner is making the same damn mistake he made just a short time ago, that mistake of course is letting Mangini help choose the new GM. IS LERNER THAT DUMB TO NOT KNOW WHAT MANGINI IS GOING T TRY TO DO?!?!?!?


By Mary Kay Cabot
November 04, 2009, 7:35PM
State of the Browns by Mary Kay Cabot and Tony Grossi

BEREA, Ohio -- Eric Mangini said he'll have input into the hiring of the new general manager of the Browns.

Mangini's first hand-picked general manager, George Kokinis, parted ways with the Browns on Monday, with no word from either side on whether he was fired or resigned.

"Yeah, Randy and I talk a lot, so I'm sure we'll be very engaged in that [decision]," said Mangini.

Asked if it would be hard to add a GM midway through the NFL season, Mangini said, "we're just going through the process, so I'm not sure how that will all play out. We have to really see what's there, see what's available."

He indicated that the Browns have strong enough pro and college departments to function without a GM for the rest of the season.

"I'm not sure what the timetable will be, but I do feel good about the process we have in place and the different departments we have in place," he said.

According to several league sources, Kokinis' role was reduced so much that things won't operate much differently than they did with him here over the past few months.

"I do feel good about all the things that we have in place, in terms of the pro department, the college department, the structures, the systems there," said Mangini. "The things mechanically, in terms of dealing with agents or transactions, I think (Vice President of Football Administration) Dawn Aponte is excellent at those things, so I feel strongly about our ability to function effectively in all of those areas."

Aponte, who worked directly under Kokinis, joined the Browns this season after spending the last three in the NFL office, where she served on the League's Management Council as the Vice President of Labor Finance. With the Browns, Aponte negotiates player contracts, manages the salary cap and handles other legal matters. She huddled with Browns owner Randy Lerner for a while after Sunday's 30-6 loss to the Bears, the night before Kokinis was shown out the door.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Slick,

I wouldn't worry too much. I honestly don't think mangini will have that much sway over the next GM. I might be wrong, but I hope I'm right.

It's going to be hard to get good talent in Cleveland soon.

Or sooner.

If I hear the words "the process" out of Carman's mouth I will punch myself in the groin.

Mangini better not have input on the GM. We already became the laughing stock by hiring a Coach first and letting him pick the GM.

Again this is backwards, but I don't expect to much more out of us...

(This is my first post in years. That will tell you what my frustration level is.)

What a mess! I've gotten up every morning for the last couple of weeks hoping to hear some positive news. Mainly I have been hoping for some news about how Lerner will finally hire someone with some credibility who can hit the restart button on this thing.

Anyone with half a brain knew this thing wasn't gonna work from day one. Kokinis was a glorified pro scout. Mangini was bringing so much negative karma that I even felt the chill up here in the great white north. His coaching decisions and personnel decisions have made the team worse, plain and simple. And anyone with any business sense can see that his style of leadership will never work.

And now this lastest email interview with Lerner has sealed the deal for me. The problem starts at the top and it has seeped down through the whole organization. This guy is a fraud. An email interview????? Grow some you know what and answer the tough questions in person.

--------------
I am a free agent fan and looking for a fresh start.

Holy crap, you regged the first month this board was open and never made one post?

WOW!

quote:

Originally posted by dawgalexander:
ESPN had a discussion today with an NFL Columnist that brought up the fact that Mangini and Kokinas already had disagreements, beginning as way back as late February. Supposedly, a HIGHLY TOUTED FREE AGENT was in cleveland for a visit and was about ready to sign a contract with the Browns. Kokinas said he had everything ready, but was told that Mangini needed to stop by and talk to the player and his agent prior to signing. Supposedly Mangini never showed up, kept the player waiting for hours, before the player left the facilities at 5pm that day to take a flight back home. Kokinas at that time was told that Eric needed to agree on all player signings, no questions ask, thus it sounded like Lerner had already made Eric a few promises early on.

But Kokinas came out today and said the Browns let a BIG OFFSEASON ACQUISITION get away, because Eric was too stubborn and that the guy was not his type of guy.

but something had to be done for Eric kick Kokinas under the bus and get him fired, would you think? They have been supposedly close friends for over 20 yrs. wonder if it has anything to do personal affairs, like Kokinas maybe was caught "with his pants down"... sexual relations with either Mangini's assistant (who got canned the week before) or Eric's wife.

because Eric was too stubborn and that the guy was not his type of guy.because Eric was too stubborn and that the guy was not his type of guy.

Mangini needs to get over this BS about "his type of Player"...This is football and players are going to have issues, be dirty, whatever...If the guy helps the team win football games than you sign him, no questions asked, especially if he is a proven player! This is not an application to attend a Catholic School...This is bare bones Cleveland Browns Football!

I wouldn't let him choose the next ballboy!

quote:

Originally posted by jm99:

quote:

In Mangini's press conference he states he'll be in discussions in picking the new GM.

WOW. I hope this is not true, because no one with any credibility would even consider coming to Cleveland if that were true. It sounds like Mangini would just be looking for another stooge.

quote:

Originally posted by Upbeat Dawg:

quote:

The usual shake up...but I see Randy ain't messing around with simple message. He wants a change in direction...maybe not coaching but in direction. Getting rid of the OC now would not help anything just cause more CHAOS and bring in a new play book. It ain't the plays...its the execution.

Eo, I agree with what you said about the execution, but I strongly disagree with the plays being called.

Why in the hell would you not run deeper routes with DA in the game?

This offense is a reflection of the type of offense Mangini would like to run, but in no way does it reflect the type of offense that they should run with a QB like DA under center.

Take the Green Bay game DA I think starts the game 5 for 5 but not one ball is thrown beyond 5 yards. Are you kidding me? you me and the entire Browns fan base knows that DA is a 10 to 25 yard passer and your asking him to throw 5 yard routes??

There is such a thing as calling plays to the strength of the players you have, and I just don’t see that with this offense, and that’s my problem.

When the game is out of reach we aren’t letting it fly where still play calling like the game is tied, WHY?

As is I believe this offense is better suited to BQ, but he was awful at executing it too.

Back on point though, you have to play call to the strength of your team, you can not and should not play call for what you would like to run for an offense but instead need to play to your players strength, and DA is not a player that I would use in a ball control offense which is what Mangini is trying to run.

My thoughts from the get go have been that in order for this team to have any measure of success we have to go vertical not horizontal, at least if DA is your QB. So yeah I blame a great deal of what’s wrong with DA on the play calling, it doesn’t suit his strength.

Me if I’m play calling for DA I spread the field and let it fly. I may not win but I sure as hell am going to be aggressive. That’s DA’s strength, and Dabol and Mangini aren’t playing to that strength.

I hope they go back to BQ this offense is perfect for him, or at least I think so. Dink and Dunk suits BQ way way better then DA.

If they stick with DA though they need to spread the field, get DA up under center and let him take 3 and 5 step drops and let it fly DEEP. From there let the chips fall where they may. But for crying out loud be aggressive with the ball…. Play like you have nothing to lose for Christ sake….

JMHO

We run the West Coast Offense. The WCO isn't about throwing deep all the time.
Case in point. About 80% of Brett Favres passes are 10 yards or less. He's completing right around 75% of his passes. The Vikings don't seem to have any trouble scoring or running the football. This isn't about how far we heave the rock. Our troubles run far deeper than that.